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Sure, that is an upgrade. From 'you played a non-NAF' to 'you played this non-member, this is who it was, he doesn't have access to his data'. Although, would that fall foul of GDPR? We might have to make a NAF nick up for them, rather than use names. And then that's effectively the same as 'non-NAF 150'.

I can only ask the question again and take advice from the techies. Because I sure as hell can't code it myself.

dreamscreator escribió: Yo la sensación que me encuentro es que cada vez hay menos gente NAF en los torneos. Es cierto que solo por el descuento ya muchos se hacen. Pero en torneos pequeños que no hacen descuento (cada vez veo más) me he encontrado mucha gente no NAF. Quizá no sea una tendencia, pero en los clubs yo veo mucha gente no NAF. A mi me choca mucho que en UK todo díos es NAF

Esto que dices no tiene nada que ver con lo que veo yo por mi zona, e intuyo que tampoco por la de Viyullas.

De Madrid para arriba, que es donde yo me muevo, la mayoría de los participantes en los torneos es NAF siempre. Sólo unos pocos, muy pocos, no lo son, y generalmente la razón es que juegan muy pocos torneos al año, o que acaban de empezar y no saben si le darán fuerte al hobby. Estos últimos, al cabo de coincidir con los habituales en 2 ó 3 torneos seguidos, suelen "federarse" (que es como se lo intento vender yo).

Es posible que en otras zonas de España el panorama sea diferente. Dreamscreator, ¿tú eres de Valencia?

Hasta donde yo sé, es obligatorio para que un torneo sea aprobado por la NAF que incluya algún tipo de descuento para los socios con su membresía en regla.

Manuel escribió:Es posible que en otras zonas de España el panorama sea diferente. Dreamscreator, ¿tú eres de Valencia?

Hasta donde yo sé, es obligatorio para que un torneo sea aprobado por la NAF que incluya algún tipo de descuento para los socios con su membresía en regla.

Sí, yo soy de Valencia, aunque he estado mucho tiempo fuera del país jugando, llevo como un año de nuevo por aquí y quizá por eso el contraste en comparación con lo que había por allí. Como ejemplo no hace mucho jugué un torneo que de cuatro partidos, tres de ellos fueron no-NAF. No digo que sean rollo la mitad, pero no me parece que sean uno o dos, aunque ya digo, quizá sea solo una sensación.

Lo del descuento no sé seguro si es obligatorio. Por esta zona he visto torneos que cuestan lo mismo seas o no NAF, y contabilizan para el ranking

Manuel escribió:

dreamscreator escribió:Hasta donde yo sé, es obligatorio para que un torneo sea aprobado por la NAF que incluya algún tipo de descuento para los socios con su membresía en regla.

If Google Translate is correctly translating your text - no, this isn't the case. The NAF don't require a discount for members for a tournament to be sanctioned. It's just very common in some areas, including mine (and apparently yours!).

Purplegoo escribió: If Google Translate is correctly translating your text - no, this isn't the case. The NAF don't require a discount for members for a tournament to be sanctioned. It's just very common in some areas, including mine (and apparently yours!).

Indeed! I was convinced the discount was mandatory. Perhaps it was in the past?

Pues a los organizadores de torneos que haya por aquí les digo: si no estáis de acuerdo con las decisiones financieras de la NAF, podéis empezar eliminando el descuento en los torneos que organicéis. Aunque sea pequeña cosa, es un gesto.

Manuel escribió: Pues a los organizadores de torneos que haya por aquí les digo: si no estáis de acuerdo con las decisiones financieras de la NAF, podéis empezar eliminando el descuento en los torneos que organicéis. Aunque sea pequeña cosa, es un gesto.

Eso hice yo: dejé de organizar torneos y de renovar cada año... mientras sigan siendo las p*titas de GW y aceptando sus mierdas como la palabra del señor un “federado” menos que tienen (yo también lo he visto siempre como una especie de federación deportiva)

La Molins de Bowl, en ninguna de sus 8 ediciones ha hecho descuento a los NAF. Y más del 80% de sus participantes eran NAF.

Siempre he pensado que si la NAF quiere que se haga un descuento, debería asumirlo ella y no la organización. Al menos una parte.

Purplegoo escribió:Sure, that is an upgrade. From 'you played a non-NAF' to 'you played this non-member, this is who it was, he doesn't have access to his data'. Although, would that fall foul of GDPR? We might have to make a NAF nick up for them, rather than use names. And then that's effectively the same as 'non-NAF 150'.

I can only ask the question again and take advice from the techies. Because I sure as hell can't code it myself.

ID could be per tournament, so it would be NoNAF_XBB2020_1 to NoNAF_XBB2020_N when N players were non-NAF at XBB 2020, and next year NoNAF_XBB2021_1, etc. A given person would appear with different IDs in different years and tournaments. It means the database will have lot of "anonymous" players.

You can create a non public table to keep who in reality was for each masked nick (John Doe was NoNAF_XBB2020_1, NoNAF_YBB2019_3, NoNAF_XBB2020_15, etc), a "translation", for future reference. Ask permission about keeping some kind of nick or real name, and those that do not allow are not recorded in this translation, or recorded as "anomymous" or as "the same", NoNAF_XBB2020_2 = NoNAF_XBB2020_2.

On technical side, I can see how getting this done would be easy, or hard, depending how things are setup already (like NAF number being used as database row ID... you would get many new "ghost members" every year). But for ranking and other computations, it would allow to keep most useful data, even if for analysis the NoNAFs are later grouped as one entry.

Teniendo en cuenta que se han gastado, si no recuerdo mal, 20.000€ en los últimos años en la web y yo la veo igual de mala que siempre, no se si es de recibo seguir metiendo dinero en esa mierda o plantearse hacer algo nuevo... y si se puede trasladar un histórico bien, y sino empezar de 0.

Vamos, que ni que la estuviera haciendo Indra.....

Purplegoo escribió:Sure, that is an upgrade. From 'you played a non-NAF' to 'you played this non-member, this is who it was, he doesn't have access to his data'. Although, would that fall foul of GDPR? We might have to make a NAF nick up for them, rather than use names. And then that's effectively the same as 'non-NAF 150'.

I can only ask the question again and take advice from the techies. Because I sure as hell can't code it myself.

From my point of view, if you use Score, you already have the player with a nickname. Not sure if a nickname is GDPR compliant (question here is if you could track a real person and his/her information using this nickname). Probably the only match person/nickname would be trough a forum (TFF, NAF or bloodbowlforo) but this is public so far.

Main problem here is if the same person is registred using two different nicknames because no official NAF nickname is used.

On top of that, would be FANTASTIC both to have all your NAF matches recorded (because I usually have 10/20% of my matches against non NAF overall) and also on the other hand, to join the NAF and have all your match record from past years available.

Guess the effort is worthy.

Regarding the involvement of the community, what I think could be done is to take what is called a "project champion" who is basically a well known member of the local community and a committed NAF player, who actively promotes the project within his community. He would be also the reference person for consulting local matters, (for example, proposing the sanctioning of a country major) and a decission maker in the NAF committee (by selecting NAF WC venue, rules changes).

This would effectively reduce anglosaxon influence in the NAF, but could also end up with decissions that a brittish could not afford XD

On the web / non-NAF stuff - lots to think about there. As I say, I'm going to bring it up, but we do have a really pressing issue with the PayPal that must take priority. Again, I am under the impression this is technically very hard, but we have a lot of new minds engaged at the moment because one of our (many) adverts for webmaster help bore fruit, so maybe we can come up with a solution once the PayPal issue is fixed. All I can do is ask!

On the website spend / a new website - a new website would be wonderful, but every quotation I've seen to have it done professionally is more money than the NAF has ever had. While the spend over the past two or three years appears high (and it did to me when I came aboard), members that have assessed what we've had done have suggested we negotiated a good rate. Some of the website stuff was critical 'it has broken, we need to fix it because the database is important (what are we without it?)' stuff, and of course, we as members don't see anything has changed for the money because it's just a fix of what is already there. There are visible quality of life improvements too (variant rankings, various tables and bits and bobs - more info here). Anyway. It is easy to want better, but very hard to buy better with our budget, so we have upgraded what we have when we can. What we really need is someone that wants to do a new site as a volunteer project. That is the most likely way of getting it done.

On discounts - this is totally up to TOs. I guess we do it because we want to encourage everyone to join what is (still, in my opinion) our rather wonderful club. You might think we have some problems, but I still believe the NAF is an important and worthwhile thing. But don't offer a discount if you don't want to.

On 'project champions' - to me, this is the regional staff that we already have. I have a good relationship with Hacha (your NTO) and some of your RTOs. Our door is always open if Hacha knocks on it with an idea or a Spanish project they wish to undertake. OK, I speak to Hacha mostly about day to day tournament stuff, but that isn't to say that's the only thing he's there for. He already represents you at Annual Review time (on rules discussions), I'm sure he'll be on the selection committee for the next World Cup decision, etc. So we have this already, imo.

Sometimes when I read threads or comments like this, I get a little frustrated that the same stuff comes up time and again. I'm never frustrated with the people making the comments, more that the NAF as an organisation is totally limited by the quality and quantity of volunteers we get, and sometimes by our communications. I can be as on-top of tournaments as is humanly possible while also having a family and a job(!), but these other wishes and niggles persist that are outside of my competence and control. At the end of the day, for a lot of it, we simply need more, skilled bodies to make it happen. If you think you can fix 'non-NAF' for us in the code, I am absolutely listening, for instance. It probably won't ever happen if we just wish hard for it.

Bottom line - I want Spain (and other countries) more engaged and involved. Sure, you've pointed out some long standing issues here, but I don't think that fixing non-NAF or a volunteer developing a new website will fix your relationship with the NAF the wider organisation. There is something more cultural at work, and I'd like us to have a stab at fixing that.

Edit: Interesting thread from mepmuff here. Thoughts?

Personally speaking I'm pro NAF and I think it can do lot.

To me is important transparency, maybe is a Mediterranean thing, we have lot of corruption in our countries (I'm not saying there is corruption in the NAF). Maybe volunteer less because they think: "Lot people pay membership they should use the money for this or that instead volunteer". Transparency is show the economic numbers (every two or three months), and tell the people where NAF use the money, where NAF needs volunteers to help

So you're saying annual accounts (2019 is coming very soon) are not enough, and we should be reporting quarterly, something like that? Again, something I can raise with Paul.

Linked to the 'corruption' point (or the point made elsewhere that the NAF leadership appear faceless): In all of these conversations, I commonly read a point and either think 'But we're doing that!' or 'But we can't do that, because of good reason Y we've spoken about before!' Look at the point Pako made about a 'Project Champion'; I would argue that is an NTO, and that it's publicly available information that Hacha is involved in rules discussions or is likely to be involved with the WC bidding process. But there's a difference between the information being available and it getting through.

As I said above, there is something cultural at work, and perhaps us not being able to adequately speak to you in your own language is a big bit of the problem. While I do come and drop tournament news on this forum, perhaps that's not the best way. What is the best way? A Spanish NAF Twitter feed? Facebook.es? Serious question. If I want to get NAF news to Spain as a whole (or receive news / questions), how do I best do that?

Sorry but from my point of view, Hacha is not a Project champion. The figure I am suggesting is based on true leadership, visible, reachable...

I am sure Hacha is doing his best. I know him personally. But some "officer" work is not enough to change the behaviour or perception of an entire community.

You need to have a proactive leader, who is involved in decissions, informing about them, building birdges with NAF committee and proposing (and accomplishing) challenges and milestones to the entire organisation from a spanish point of view.

Someone that could:

- Promote a National Tournament (which is currently a hot topic here)
- Defining an "official" Spanish team for the World Cup
- Granting a Major inside Spain
- Reporting NAF committee decissions
- Collecting spanish community perspective and communicating it to the NAF committee

This is a VERY HARD work. And a key milestone in every single change management project I faced. To find out someone trustable, capable, motivated and active.

And, you need one of each for Spain, France, Italy...

Purplegoo escribió:So you're saying annual accounts (2019 is coming very soon) are not enough, and we should be reporting quarterly, something like that? Again, something I can raise with Paul.

IMO that is a goos idea. Any increase of transparency with more regular reports, numbers on the WC (I think people have doubts about them), etc. is great.

Purplegoo escribió:As I said above, there is something cultural at work, and perhaps us not being able to adequately speak to you in your own language is a big bit of the problem. While I do come and drop tournament news on this forum, perhaps that's not the best way. What is the best way? A Spanish NAF Twitter feed? Facebook.es? Serious question. If I want to get NAF news to Spain as a whole (or receive news / questions), how do I best do that?

This is not very different of what happen in UK. In there people move more in leagues/clubs facebooks groups or whatsapp/discord/telegram groups than general facebook or TFF. TFF is great to see which tournament is going on or clarify doubts about rules, sometimes there are great discussions like this one here, but this forum is not so much different from TFF, same feeling from Spanish forum in Spanish, even I think there is less movement in there. An official NAF facebook/twitter profile in Spanish who put the same message in the Spanish facebook group maybe can try to engage some people.

But the main challenge is the feeling about GW that Spanish community have.