Elecciones presidenciales 2020

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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Jue Ene 30, 2020 3:52 pm

Pako: Right. Let's call it 'NTO+'. In my experience, I've found that the roles of NTO and RTO are different in every country. In some countries, NTOs are operating almost as you describe, as well as uploading all tournament submissions and results for TOs. They're basically 'Mr. NAF Blood Bowl' in their country. In others, they're really just handing out dice and trophies and that's all they do. What you're suggesting is that we formalise the job description (we don't really right now), and also ask more of everyone. As you then go onto suggest, the difficulty is that this isn't what the current staff have signed up for, and actually, finding Mr. Blood Bowl for every country is tricky in an environment where we often struggle for volunteers. I can't stress that enough; basically, the NAF are limited by how many people are willing to get involved and help. We now have 5000 members, probably at least double the number we had when you joined. I bet you 50 Euro we don't have double the volunteers. I try and treat TD with all of the passion, enthusiasm and activity with which I treat my actual, real job (hence why I'm here talking to you when I should be working!). But I can't and don't expect everyone we have to put in the same effort.

I speak to Hacha on WhatsApp about tournaments pretty often, and he has recently agreed to take on a bit more responsibility for us (we'll announce this next month). I would be surprised and super-disappointed if he (or any NTO) did not feel like he could shout 'Hey Phil! My country thinks this needs to happen!' Because, if he did that, that would go straight into the next committee call. I trust and value our tournament staff. I listen if they talk.

On the major point: Just outline 'why' for me? Greater advertising for that tournament? In that case, if every country got a major, it may easily be lost in the noise. Do your big tournaments (REVA, Bilbali) really need more help? Or is it access to ranking points? Remember; part of the beauty of the glicko system is that it doesn't care about 'majors', so one of the benefits of these new rankings is that they don't penalise rankings chasers for living in a non-major country. Some think glicko > Elo, so I'm glad we have the new system.

dreamscreator: I'll bring up quarterly accounts with Paul at the next call and report back here. I think there's a lot to discuss on the next call, so my report back on this forum might be long. :)

I am confident that if I post tournament news on TFF and ask the NAF to Tweet / Facebook it, then UK coaches that care and follow the news will get it. If it takes us opening more social media accounts to get the same traction here, then maybe we will.

GW: Ahh, the million dollar subject. The NAF absolutely cannot win, here. I think the Annual Review is the very best we can do. We give it time, we review stuff for inclusion, we allow TOs to use new stuff if they like before review. If we were more GW-friendly, we'd piss off half of the members, less GW-friendly the other half (and crucially, anyone new). Whatever I say about GW, we lose. I'd love to satisfy everyone, but cannot. :)

Again - super sorry I cannot post in Spanish, but this is good stuff. Please keep it coming. :D
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Viyullas » Vie Ene 31, 2020 8:44 am

Purplegoo, es genial que te involucres con la comunidad española e intentes buscar soluciones. Yo te lo agradezco.
Por otro lado me da pena que nuestro recién elegido presidente, como siempre, haya venido hasta aquí a pedir que el votemos y una vez ha sido elegido (sin muchos votos españoles, supongo) no haya vuelto a abrir la boca.
Supongo que ese tipo de actitud es la que genera bastante rechazo ante su gestión (hablo por mi).

Sobre el voluntariado, el apoyo a eventos, etc... cuando lees que se tira el dinero para la organización de ciertos eventos a los que en su mayor parte van ingleses.... mientras otros con mas asistencia donde principalmente van españoles subsisten desde hace mas de 10 años, sin que nadie les de un duro, sin ser reconocidos como "Mayors" y sin apenas apoyo de nadie de la NAF hasta hace 3 años, que se enteraron de que en la REVA había cerveza gratis y empezaron a venir.... te planteas porque ibas tu a dedicar tu tiempo libre a hacer un trabajo para esa gente por nada. Lo siento, soy así de cínico.

PD: Si respondo en español no es por no ser capaz de hacerlo en ingles, siento que te toque traducirlo :-D, es simplemente que esto es un foro español, e igual que yo escribo en ingles en TFF o el foro de la NAF cuando quiero que me entendáis, espero lo mismo cuando venís a mi foro. ;-). No todo el mundo en España se maneja bien con el ingles y creo que esta conversación es lo suficientemente importante como para que los usuarios de este foro puedan seguirla sin problemas de traducción.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Vie Ene 31, 2020 9:52 am

I think Google Translate is good enough for me to write in English and you to write in Spanish and for us to understand each other. Or at least, I hope it is. :) I agree that more Spanish on the Spanish forum leads to more people reading, which is a good thing.

I'm here talking to you guys because I care about this stuff, but I admit, it's not 'my job'. Perhaps the heart of the issue is that it's never been anyone's job, and the committee are all so busy with their day to day tasks that reaching out to non-English speaking countries has taken a back seat to getting stuff done. I think that's my conclusion from this chat so far; yes (for example) 'non-NAF' would be a nice problem to solve, but really, the deeper point is about communication and having a means of communicating. Am I wrong?

Nate knows this chat is happening, and I can assure you he cares about Spanish Blood Bowl (I've always gotten the feeling he has a soft spot for you guys above the other Euros). The voter numbers illustrating this issue have been available for less than a week, and it is tough to be active on every regional forum. Give him / give us time. E-mails are going back and forth between the committee about setting up our next call, and this subject is on the agenda. I can't promise, by the way, that we'll solve every question to the satisfaction of everyone, but I am making a list. ;)

On 'throwing money about', in my time, the NAF has given loans to start continental team tournaments out, that's it. I don't think the Amorical Cup (NA) or the World Cup happen without a loan, and the organisation is richer for having them. None of them have been in England. It's true to say that the NAF Championship owed the NAF money from previous years, but after a good 2019, I don't think that is still the case, I think it's profitable. I didn't come to REVA for the free beer (although hooray! :D), I came because it was a cool looking, massive tournament and I enjoyed my other tournaments in Spain. If Eurobowl or the WC is in Spain in future, it can expect a loan if it needs one. That's the level to which we loan money - REVA's equivalent in the UK (the UKTC, I guess) doesn't get a penny from the NAF. Is that what the major thing is about - some events feel they would like a loan?
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Viyullas » Lun Feb 03, 2020 8:45 am

Hola de nuevo...
Ya se que vienes aqui a hablar porque te importa, se que eres un buen tipo, al menos cuando nos hemos conocido en persona es la impresión que me ha dado.
No pienso lo mismo de toda la gente que ha manejado la NAF, lo siento.

I'm here talking to you guys because I care about this stuff, but I admit, it's not 'my job'. Perhaps the heart of the issue is that it's never been anyone's job, and the committee are all so busy with their day to day tasks that reaching out to non-English speaking countries has taken a back seat to getting stuff done. I think that's my conclusion from this chat so far; yes (for example) 'non-NAF' would be a nice problem to solve, but really, the deeper point is about communication and having a means of communicating. Am I wrong?

Nate knows this chat is happening, and I can assure you he cares about Spanish Blood Bowl (I've always gotten the feeling he has a soft spot for you guys above the other Euros). The voter numbers illustrating this issue have been available for less than a week, and it is tough to be active on every regional forum. Give him / give us time. E-mails are going back and forth between the committee about setting up our next call, and this subject is on the agenda. I can't promise, by the way, that we'll solve every question to the satisfaction of everyone, but I am making a list. ;)

Quizá parte del problema sea ese, que no es trabajo de nadie mantenerse en contacto con los jugadores no angloparlantes. Quizá sea el momento de plantearse un NAFxit, y montar nuestra propia asociación, que cuide de nuestros intereses, y si la NAF quiere hacer una WC que hablen entre ambas, para que todos estemos representados de igual manera.

Y sobre los prestamos... creo que si la NAF monta un evento debe usar dinero de la NAF, y si lo monta un tercero, que tiene capacidad para firmar acuerdos opacos y no reportar a los socios de la NAF, debería buscar su propio dinero. No se, a mi me parece lo normal, no? Si pides dinero a un grupo de gente parece lógico que esa gente te pregunte en que te lo has gastado, cuando vas devolverlo y porque ha decido montar un evento con un dinero que no tenia.... o si se contaba con ese dinero a la hora de presentar la propuesta, porque si es asi todos los que presenten propuesta deberían contar con ello... y aparecer en las bases, no?
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Lun Feb 03, 2020 10:24 am

I think you've hit on the key point here as I see it - it is presently no-one's job to routinely come here and speak to you. We don't have a committee meeting in the very near future, but we are talking about this exact thing over email and I've seen some good ideas. Watch this space, we are thinking about it.

On the loans we give out - Paul (Treasurer) is probably a whole lot better placed to answer these questions, and when the accounts land (very soon), I encourage you to ask him. In my experience, the small number of continental / global tournaments we loan money to have to present us with a plan (see: World Cup bidding) and we / Paul have to be satisfied it's a reasonable one. I asked Paul about quarterly accounts recently (full answer on this and other questions later) and he was surprised because no-one ever asks him questions about the accounts. I think that's a fair point; we prepare and publish annual accounts to a wall of silence most years. If you want more from us, please make noise!

Anyway, thanks for being kind about me. Hopefully you trust me when I say we are talking about what we can do to improve things. We can but try!
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Viyullas » Mar Feb 04, 2020 8:23 am

Por un lado, no se trata de que alguien venga una vez por semana y nos cuente cuqlquier cosa, sino de que se sienta que la NAF tiene algun interes en lo que pasa fuera de Inglaterra.....

Por el otro, estoy bastante seguro de que Pako (que confirme el si me equivoco), y mas gente, ha pedido en repetidas ocasiones explicaciones de las cuentas de la NAF. Quizá el problema sea que cuando se cuestionan no se escucha, por eso parece que nadie se interesa....
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Mar Feb 04, 2020 10:14 am

I guess on both points, sometimes perceptions are tougher to change than reality. We certainly care about BB everywhere, for instance, but I understand we've got some convincing to do. :)

The 2019 accounts are due within the next two weeks and we have a treasurer election coming up. You will have ample chance to interrogate the accounts and the person who puts them together pretty soon, so if you are unsatisfied, I hope you do!

In other news, El_Nota has made a lovely start translating our tournament docs. I'll be uploading his work so far today. Cheers El_Nota!
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Pakulkan » Mar Feb 04, 2020 12:11 pm

The problem with NAF accouts is that those accounts do not account for nothing... XD
I am familiar with audit and transparency policies, and the published accounts do not allow to track any single management issue.
Proper accounting will disclose all the single payment topics (i.e. member fees could be aggregated and listed as "Total for X memberships") what we basically got (last time I've checked) was a gross income and gross expenditure, which is barely nothing.
This is a sensitive point, because I have no personal issues against Lycos or Geggster, but I truly think in the early days not all the money in was spent in NAF matters. I assume this feeling would be insulting for NAF officers, but the level of aggresiveness showed during my run for election just make me stack at this point. Sorry if I'm wrong, but both decissions at those times and current "transparency" are far from be fair.
On top of this, there were formal and public requests from members (me included) demanding more precise accounts and payment documents for the listed expenditures. With no response. This is (here in Spain at least) ilegal, if you're member of an organization.
Don't want to ellaborate more, just answering Viyullas comments. That was another (and big) issue for people getting alienated from NAF.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Mar Feb 04, 2020 1:50 pm

Hmm - do the accounts not show, for instance, membership fees ('subs') as a discrete line item? If I loom at the 2018 version, it's there? https://www.thenaf.net/wp-content/uploa ... s-2018.pdf. Can you please point me at the public post where you asked for things and got no response? I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I'd like to see.

I obviously can't speak for the early Lycos / Geggster days because I wasn't around then. These guys are, however, my friends, so I suppose I cannot be impartial. That said, I simply can't believe either of them would have spent NAF funds on non-NAF things. It just isn't in their DNA.

On your election candidacy, Pako, I think a lot of the trouble was caused by your passion being mistaken for aggression via the language barrier. I know better now, but at the time, I saw your candidacy as a protest because you'd missed out on the Amsterdam WC, and felt you were lashing out at anything you could lash out at. Now, I think you're a passionate bloke who could have been a good president. I appreciate you feel that people attacked you around that election, but I think there were misunderstandings on all sides that are regretful in hindsight. At least, that's my armchair analysis. :)
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Pakulkan » Mar Feb 04, 2020 2:04 pm

Posts are from 2014 or even earlier... So far, this is history. My opinion (as all are) is also subjective.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor El_Nota » Lun Feb 10, 2020 1:13 pm

Hello Purplegoo,

I talked to some friends (old bloodbowlers, they can say who they are themselves) last Saturday with a glass of wine in hand, the only civilized way of talking about anything (maybe beer as well). I brought to conversation this very post and how you were all talking about the Spanish des-afection to NAF, what the NAF can do to overcome it, etc...

We reached to a meeting point that maybe the NAF is too British-centric and that coaches from other countries feel a des-affection because the people doesn't see the NAF as something "near".

We came to this idea and I wanted to ask you if it would be possible or not. And it is... why the NAF Championship is based all the years in the same country? Being the NAF a worldwide coaches association... wouldn't it be nice to have it hosted in a different country (always, if some volunteers to organise it can be found) every year?

Maybe this was discussed in the past. Maybe it cannot help with the des-affection thing... or maybe it could...

Other strong idea is to have more support from the NAF to tournaments. Nowadays the NAF provides the litte NAF cup for the winner... What about some special NAF dice for NAF tournament winners? and even better (because the winner already takes the cup), what about a small little price that could be given to a random player that attends every NAF tournament? What about providing a good tool for tournament organization that is NAF-approved and is totally free for members? and official NAF blank rosters for team building? Providing helpful tools could also be a good NAF support. Being more present in the tournaments is the way to earn some affection.

That's all. I would like to thank you for your time posting here (and going back and forth with the Google Translator) and more than that, I would like to thank you for your constructive dialogue with all the people.

PD: also, a couple more questions... where do you see the dis-affection from Spanish coaches? is the same in other countries or do you only see it Spain?
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Sab Feb 29, 2020 8:28 pm

Hi El_Nota,

Apologies, I totally missed your post. I saw you'd posted the translation stuff (and thanks for that: great job!), but then missed there was an extra post in this thread. My bad - I'm not ignoring you!

I promised Pako some answers to some questions above, but I'm waiting until after our next meeting to properly give them. That's next weekend. So if you'd be so kind, can I come back and answer the NAF Championship and tournament goodies questions (which have already been asked above, sort of) in 10 days or so, as part of a wider answering session? I can't promise you'll like the answers, but there will at least be some!

On the last question, 'disaffection' is always apparent in Blood Bowl communities regardless of topic. Any time the NAF, GW, Cyanide or anyone else makes a decision, the loudest people on the internet don't like it. That is true of all things; if we decided to give all members a 10 Euro bonus, people would be upset it isn't 11 Euro. :D

However, I think the general, underlying Spanish disaffection is somewhat unique, yes. There are pockets of France that get annoyed every so often, and a section of the UK were very, very upset in the presidential election (while you may see the NAF as UK-centric, we obviously don't try to be, and they don't always like us anyway!), but the constant background disaffection is a Spanish thing, to my eye.

It might be that you guys are just loudest about it. The voter numbers for the recent election in France and Italy were just as bad, maybe they are just as disillusioned and I don't see it online. We are currently talking about ways and means to combat this, and I hope you'll see that in action soon. Whatever you think of the NAF, we bloody well care. I'd not be spending my time working for the NAF if we didn't. It's great you recognise I'm trying, but I won't be satisfied if you don't tell me later we're making progress.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Lun Mar 09, 2020 10:25 am

Hi gang,

We finally had our first committee meeting of 2020 at the weekend, so I am better placed to answer some of the questions you've raised here. Not all of them, but for good reasons (I hope, see below)! If I have missed your question in my summary below or in my answers above, please shout at me, as I have not meant to.

- Accounts. The 2019 accounts are now live, please go and read the statement here first. If you have any questions about the accounts, the World Cup spend or anything else financial, contact Geggster via the NAF forum. I know some of you don't think our accounts go far enough and this stuff is likely to provoke questions, so if you have questions, please go ask them. Dreamscreator asked if we can do accounts quarterly, I have asked, and the answer is that accounts take time to prepare and doing them every quarter would not produce more / deeper information, so it's not considered a worthwhile thing to do. Again, should you disagree, go plead your case to the Treasurer!

- Investment. Now the accounts are live, you'll see that we are not presently swimming in cash. We have been investing in the website over the past couple of years (see the above for more info on that), but any new, large expenditure is on hold for now. We recently put together a small but keen team of members to continue to work on website stuff for us, and we're already seeing results (for instance, the PayPal thing looks to be solved. Hooray!). So we're investing considerable time, if not money.

- Tournament Packs. There are two major obstacles with this idea. Firstly, we're a little short on funds at the moment to commission new gifts / prizes, but longer term, the supply chain would be challenging for us to manage. In some areas, we lose money on the present gift / trophy arrangements because of the price of postage. There is often lag with our volunteer network from when trophies are requested through when we send them to when they arrive, which would only get worse with more stuff in the system. Lastly, we have to pay for this stuff, somehow. We spoke about this on the weekend, and the plan is to wait until we've built a little surplus again, then revisit the topic. It might be that we can commission some new, cool stuff, but it is probable we'd need a volunteer to co-ordinate it and that tournaments that want more bits may have to pay a nominal fee. But we'll see - one for the future.

- Non NAF results. As noted above, we have a new, keen software team, and I have asked them about this (again). It is apparently not impossible, so keep everything crossed they find a way to deliver.

- Project Champions / Majors / Outreach to non-English Speaking Areas. This was a long, positive discussion. We are not yet done with the conversation and we have actions to complete before speaking publicly, but rest assured we are working on this difficult yet important area. As I said above, I want you guys to tell me that we are making progress, and some of the ideas we've spoken about represent that - genuine progress. You will hear more from the NAF on these items in the near future, I promise. I will annoy people until we do things. ;)

Right. I hope that covers everything I've not covered so far? This isn't the end of the conversation, it's an ongoing thing. If I have not answered something or in a couple of months, you have heard nothing about better engagement, tell me. I'm here to help.

Cheers,

Phil.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Kafre » Lun Mar 30, 2020 5:30 pm

Purplegoo escribió:Hola peña,

Este fin de semana por fin hemos tenido nuestra primera reunión del comité de 2020, así que me encuentro en mejor posición para responder algunas de las dudas que han surgido por aquí. No todas, ¡pero por buenas razones! (O eso espero, mirad más abajo). Si me he saltado tu pregunta en el resumen de abajo o en las respuestas de arriba, por favor dame un grito, ya que no era mi intención.

- Cuentas. Las cuentas de 2019 ya están disponibles, por favor leed esta declaración primero. Si tenéis cualquier duda sobre las cuentas, el gasto en la World Cup o cualquier otra cosa financiera, contactar con Geggster a través del foro de la NAF. Sé que algunos de vosotros no creéis que nuestras cuentas sean lo suficientemente detalladas y es posible que esto provoque dudas, así que si tenéis preguntas, preguntad. Dreamscreator preguntó si podríamos hacer las cuentas cuatrimestralmente. Lo he consultado y la respuesta es que las cuentas llevan bastante tiempo prepararlas y hacerlas cada cuatrimestre no proporcionaría más información o más detallada, así que no se considera algo que merezca la pena hacer. Pero si no estás de acuerdo ¡Pídeselo al Tesorero!

- Inversiones. Ahora que se han publicado las cuentas, podéis ver que no estamos nadando en pasta precisamente. Hemos estado invirtiendo en la página web el último par de años (ver enlace de más arriba para saber más sobre este tema), pero cualquier gasto grande y nuevo está en pausa por ahora. Hemos conseguido reunir un equipo pequeño pero entusiasta de miembros para continuar trabajando en las cosas de la web, y ya estamos viendo resultados (por ejemplo, el tema de PayPal parece haberse resuelto. ¡Yupi!) Así que estamos invirtiendo un tiempo considerable, si bien no dinero.

- Packs de Torneo. Hay dos grandes problemas con esta idea. Primero, estamos un poco cortos de fondos ahora mismo para encargar nuevos regalos / premios, pero a largo plazo, la cadena de suministro sería complicada de mantener. En algunas zonas perdemos dinero con los regalos de bienvenida y los trofeos de los torneos debido al precio del envío. A menudo hay retrasos con la red de voluntarios desde que se solicitan los trofeos hasta que los enviamos y llegan, estos retrasos empeorarían si añadimos más material al sistema. Por último, de algún modo tenemos que pagar estas movidas. Hemos estado hablando sobre ello durante el finde, y el plan es esperar hasta que hayamos conseguido un pequeño superávit y volver a discutir el tema. Cabría la posibilidad de que pudiéramos encargar algunas cosas chulas, pero es probable que necesitemos un voluntario que lo coordine y que los torneos que quieran más cosas tengan que pagar un precio módico. Pero ya lo veremos - una que queda para el futuro.

- Resultados no NAF. Como se ha indicado anteriormente, tenemos un nuevo y entusiasta equipo de software y les he pedido esto (otra vez). Al parecer no es imposible, así que mantened todos vuestros miembros cruzados para que encuentren una forma de hacerlo.

- Proyecto de Champions / Grandes / Alcanzar más zonas no Angloparlantes. Esta ha sido una discusión larga y positiva. No hemos terminado todavía con la conversación y ya tenemos acciones para completar antes de hacerlas públicas, pero os aseguro que estamos trabajando en esta difícil a la vez que importante tarea. Como se ha dicho antes, quiero que me vosotros, chicos, comentéis que estamos haciendo progresos, y algunas de las ideas de las que hemos hablado representan eso, progreso del de verdad. Oiréis más de la NAF sobre esos puntos en un futuro cercano, lo prometo. Daré la brasa a la gente hasta que hagamos las cosas. ;)

Bueno. Creo que esto cubra todo lo que no había cubierto hasta ahora ¿no? Este no va a ser el final de la conversación, es algo que irá discurriendo. Si no he respondido a alo o en un par de meses, no habéis oido nada sobre una mayor implicación, hacedmelo saber. Estoy aquí para ayudar.

Saludos,

Phil.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Jue Abr 02, 2020 10:02 am

Thanks, Kafre. The minutes from the meeting are now published, so you can see the sorts of things we're thinking about regarding European outreach (point 4). This stuff is bubbling along, but obviously there are current issues with getting much of anything done. However, as you can see, it is on the table.

I hope all of you are staying safe and well in these awful times.
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